Why can police officers be the biggest idiots????
#61
10-10-2007, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Triple Digit Bob
AH,.something don't smell good. Did I fart or did somebody forget to take shower or somezing like that. :?
#62
10-10-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
RevVassago; eagerly awaits golfhobo's next excuse as to why Ben shouldn't have stopped.
"Although, I agree with you KC0iv, that he might should have STOPPED, I don't think it is necessarily relevant, and doubt that it would hold up in court against him. Please note the enlarged text. This law EXCLUDES police cars! "
"Ben: IF you got "cited," I would FIRST call the supervisor to discuss it, if that fails, hire an attorney to fight it. You "MIGHT" have been in the wrong, but under the circumstances, I believe it could be reduced at least." "Well.... REV... it's nice to see you've found TIME to rejoin us! And, yes... I agree with most of what you said in your previous post!" "Could be true, but, who knows if the officer can see around the vehicle enough to pass safely? If NOT.... he is STUCK there! By continuing to MOVE, at a slow pace, the driver affords the officer MORE opportunities to pass him safely."
Mr. Ford said: For what it is worth, I have been informed by cops that sometimes it's best not to just up and stop but to hold your position and let them do the jockeying. If he had stopped on a rural winding road, it prolly would have pissed the cop off more.
Jegzus (I believe) said: it has been my experience and has been discussed with me by state troopers and other law enforcement that I know, that it is better for a driver to slow down and do their best to "get out of our way" than it is to stop in the roadway. Stopping in the road way not only puts the driver at risk but also the emergency personnel trying to overtake that vehicle/s. I'll have MORE on this in response to your request, and you and KC's posts, but as you know, this BBcode is a byatch! :lol:
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#63
10-10-2007, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by bouncer
My 2 cents you should have pulled over as much as possible to the right and stopped.2 things would have haoppened there 1 he would have gone passed you or 2 he would have got on his PA and told you to keep going.you should have stopped no matter what.
Look, folks.... the EXCEPTIONS to the law, usable as a plausible defense, were CLEARLY stated in one of KC's first posts. If a driver feels that stopping would endanger HIS or OTHER'S lives, he can continue to a better place to pull over (paraphrased,) plain and simple.
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#64
10-10-2007, 11:47 PM
Bottomline is pull as far to the right as possible and stop. There is no other excuse. Unless you are on a one lane bridge, there is no reason NOT to stop. Drivers who keep moving make cops, firefighters and EMS drivers REALLY nervous because we do not know your intentions. We much rather you just stop and we'll be the judge on how to better get around you.
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#65
10-11-2007, 12:10 AM
Re: Why can police officers be the biggest idiots????
Originally Posted by Triple Digit Bob
Originally Posted by ben45750
This happened a couple days ago and is really bugging the S*@T out of me.
I haul gas and I had a delivery of 8,800 gallons going to Glenville, WV. The only legal way to get there is to run a very narrow road. There are two other ways to get there, but because of weight restrictions on bridges the narrow road is the way we must take, if it's a smaller order you can take other routes but when your 79,500 there is no other choice. Some might know the road if your from WV. Rt 5 West to Glenville, Exit 79 off I-79. About 5-6 miles west of I-79 I have 2 cars following me. I can only do 35 MPH average, some straights I can get to 50 and some curves I'm down to 15, lots of hills and sharp curves. A State Trooper comes flying up behind us, the 2 cars can get out of his way with no problem, I have no where to go. There is no shoulder, if I do pull off the road I am going into a deep ditch. I slow down thinking he can just simply pass me, I'm waving him around me and he doesn't do anything. Finally we get to a straight stretch and he passes me. About 5 miles down the road there is an accident, right lane blocked so they are letting traffic go by in the left lane. I get right up to the accident and the officer jumps out in the middle of the road with his hand up. He proceeds to jump on the side of my truck and yell at me through my window. I stoped the truck, set the brakes and ask him to get off of my truck. That pissed him off even more. I asked him what he wanted me to do? I asked him if he wanted me to cause another accident by pulling over in the ditch (no doubt the truck would have went over) and he would have 45,000 pounds of gas to deal with IF it didn't ignite. he told me he didn't care and when an emergency vehicle has their lights on I MUST GET OVER. I told him to write the ticket and lets see what an educated judge thinks about this situation. He did this in front of a group a people around the accident, which in my opinion makes me and my company look bad and that we don't obey law enforcement. Told my dispatcher and they just blew it off. I think this cop was way out of line and a idiot. I know his badge number, car number and his name. Should I write a complaint about him of let it go? Or was I in the wrong and should have got out of his way? So far THIS is the best advice I have read. :lol: :lol:
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#66
10-11-2007, 12:25 AM
This is why I said a call to the supervisor might be in order.... pretty much to explain his reasoning.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't report to the supervisor what HE feels is unprofessionalism on the part of the trooper. The super MIGHT have an explanation for BEN..... or he MIGHT hand down a reprimand to the officer. (Besides, at the time I posted that.... it wasn't clear to anyone on this thread whether or not there had been a citation.)
It wasn't clear from his first post, but it SHOULD be now... that his window was DOWN, and the officer was spitting at him through an OPEN window.
I take Ben at his word that he was not exaggerating, just like I would YOU. However.... put a "mountie hat" on Bill Cowher and piss him off.... and well..... I can certainly SEE it! :wink:
Also, he has made it quite clear to all but the Rev., that this was a two lane road with absolutely NO ROOM to pull over without going in a ditch, or at least risking it.... You all HAVE heard of a "soft shoulder" right?
And "I" never said you said he should move over! Check your comprehension! I said it was clear to all but the one idiot who asked if it was a one lane road, that it WASN'T!! :P
So, had he stopped immediately, it would have been IN the lane of traffic, and ON a curve. The officer would be blocked behind him and in a VERY unsafe and risky position to try to pass him (from a point of no acceleration on his part.)
The CFR's say otherwise! They put his DUTY to safegaurd his hazardous load above state laws, if they seem in conflict. And clearly state that the FMCSA has jurisdiction.
Ben, did the SMART thing.... something GOOD truckers are often called on to do! HE slowed but kept moving until he was on a STRAIGHT stretch of road, so that the officer would have a line of sight for a distance in which he could judge whether it was safe to pass, while having at least somewhat of a "running start" at it.
Since, as you say, there was no citation, then illegal or not, it MAY have been the smarter thing to do. Since we don't know IF the trooper might have caused an accident by passing him on a curve, we'll never KNOW which would have been smarter. We DO know, however, that Ben's actions did NOT lead to a fatal accident! [nor can I see ANY situation where they WOULD have!]
EVERY law that was quoted, ASSUMED that there was a portion of "roadway" to move over into, and at least partially out of the traffic lane.
YOU can call it what you WANT.... I call it comprehension. Look at the laws in that one post of the 11 states. Nearly EVERY one of them refers to a CURB, or a SHOULDER, or a section of the roadway that is parallel to, AND TO THE RIGHT OF, the roadway (or traffic lane.) To someone with an EDUCATION, this "implies" that there is a paved section of the Roadway to the RIGHT of the FOGLINE.... OR.... is taking into consideration ONLY a lighter weight vehicle like a car which can be supported EVEN by a "soft shoulder." The INTENT of these laws, is to have a vehicle pull to the right IF POSSIBLE, to allow room for the emergency vehicle to pass WITHOUT (if possible) having to go into opposing traffic. If these laws failed to consider this particular situation, and by OMISSION left out any other alternative but to STOP in the TRAFFIC LANE, then I STILL insist that they wouldn't want you to do so if there was no CLEAR LINE OF SIGHT for an officer to see around you before passing. Again.... keep in mind that an officer COULD see around a smaller 4wheeler even IF stopped in the traffic lane... but only Superman could see over or through a CMV.
Had Ben stopped immeditately in this case, the officer would have been stopped dead behind him IN THE LANE.
You're right!! Not unless he was a FOOL!! And Ben's account indicates that this officer did NOT attempt such a maneuver even though he was only crawling at 15 mph!
Every law ALSO seemed to allow for some judgement by the motorist as to IF and WHEN he could follow the LETTER of the law.
Now you're just getting ridiculous. The small "excerpts" from the laws from the 11 states that KC quoted, are just that.... "excerpts." I'm fairly confident that, if you check the entire statute from each state, you will find similar "exceptions" as were listed in his OTHER post.
If you want to get so dang "technical" about the LETTER of the law, I'm sure you can find one against stopping IN THE TRAFFIC LANE, as well. I think it is GOOD to know what the law says, but there is no substitution for common sense!
Point is.... it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to write ANY law that incorporates ALL possible scenarios. And only someone who is ANAL would consider them to be so "Black and White." Now, don't get me wrong.... I can read, and I saw the word STOP in almost every one of those laws referenced. I have AGREED that that is the INTENT of the law. But, if a Hazmat load on a windy narrow goat path in WVA doesn't qualify for some exemption for common sense, then there IS none.... and there clearly ARE!! The part I still haven't figured out is this:
Originally Posted by ben45750
A State Trooper comes flying up behind us, the 2 cars can get out of his way with no problem, I have no where to go.
Actually, it is. And more to the point, it is much taller and harder to see over or around.... and about 25 times HEAVIER! Hmmmm....... perhaps they stopped their vehicles so the officer could pass them, just as the law states. Or perhaps, at less than 3,000 lbs each, they were able to at least HALFWAY stop on the "shoulder," even if it WAS a bank to a ditch! :roll:
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#67
10-11-2007, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by greg3564
Bottomline is pull as far to the right as possible and stop. There is no other excuse. Unless you are on a one lane bridge, there is no reason NOT to stop. Drivers who keep moving make cops, firefighters and EMS drivers REALLY nervous because we do not know your intentions. We much rather you just stop and we'll be the judge on how to better get around you.
YOUR points, and YOUR preferences are noted, Greg. However, they have also been contradicted by OTHER's posting or referenced on this thread. :wink: So, can you CITE that "national consensus" of LEO's concerning this question for me? And why is a one-lane bridge a problem? Same as a Tunnel? Because you either can't GET around us, or can't SEE what is coming? Why then would a curve be any different? (gee.... I wonder if that is why there are solid yellow lines in MOST curves??) Ben actually described his position as "left steer on the yellow and right steer on the fogline." IF, as he implied, this was on a curve, then his tandems would have already BEEN in the ditch. I believe if this curve was a problem at all, his LEFT steer was probably OVER the yellow line. I recently ran CA-198 west of I-5 in Cali. Coalingua Canyon, I believe they call it. There were MANY curves on that road where I had to take MOST of the oncoming lane to keep my tandems on the "roadway." Had I STOPPED on any number of those curves for a emergency vehicle LARGER than a "cruiser," I would have been "obstructing the progress of an emergency vehicle." Sorry, but I'm not gonna WAIT for a blast from a bullhorn..... I'm going to use some COMMON SENSE and get out of his way until I'm on a straightaway!
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Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev.
#68
10-11-2007, 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by golfhobo
The CFR's say otherwise! They put his DUTY to safegaurd his hazardous load above state laws, if they seem in conflict. And clearly state that the FMCSA has jurisdiction.
#69
10-11-2007, 01:47 AM
golfhobo, I'll ask you again. Where in the original post say it was on a curve? What it did say "...lots of hills and sharp curves." and "I slow down thinking he can just simply pass me,..." and "... I'm waving him around me and he doesn't do anything."
Since you always deal in FACTS I can not understand how YOU keep missing the FACTS. Is it because they don't support your claims? Were it comes to my post on the laws for the state of PA and WV you refer to notice it says "preponderance of the evidence." Did you notice it is a preponderance (A superiority in numbers) now lets look at what is a preponderance of evidence in what we know. 1) The time and location of the event. -- Possible 2) The type of vehicle used by the police officer. -- Unknown 3) The defendant's conduct while being followed by the police officer. -- attempted to wave the officer around. 4) Whether the defendant stopped at the first available reasonably lighted or populated area. -- He didn't do this. Didn't stop. 5) Any other factor considered relevant by the court. -- N/A Do you think it would be a "preponderance of the evidence?" Another point. You seem to have missed this part. "shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge" Doesn't say anything about clearing the roadway or driving on the shoulder does it? However it does say -- "the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way" I don't see an exception for HazMat tankers -- Do You? You might not like the law or how it is applied. But until the law is change it is the law. To me he got of lucky with just a butt chewing. kc0iv
#70
10-11-2007, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by kc0iv
[color=green]golfhobo, You have every time said "and ON a curve" well unless Ben has a super long arm he couldn't have been on a curve. Look at Ben's statement
I slow down thinking he can just simply pass me, I'm waving him around me and he doesn't do anything.
Let's look at in two parts.
I slow down thinking he can just simply pass me, Ben is clearly saying he expected to officer to pass him. Now my question to you -- Would Ben expect the officer to pass on a curve? Or was Ben expecting the officer to pass on a straight portion of the road?
Could be BOTH! Again, it might have been a left hand curve when he first started waving.... but I still think not. Point is, as "I" understood his original post, he was going no more than about 15mph (because it was a curve) and regardless of whether the cop could see his arm waving, OR whether it WAS waving yet.... he expected the cop to pass him immediately upon "contact." Ben COULD have both "expected" the cop to pass him on a curve, AND been concerned that it wasn't safe, and he wasn't going to stop until it WAS. Either way, I believe his version of the facts implies that he was NOT YET on a straightaway upon first contact. Which IS my basis for assuming he was in a curve. And that "IS" your question, right?
Now lets look at the second part. Ben said: "I'm waving him around me and he doesn't do anything." So I ask you -- Was Ben expecting the officer to pass on a curve? Or was Ben expecting the officer to pass on a straight portion of the road?
Ben said he was waving the officer around him. Would the officer be able to see Ben's arm if they were going around a curve?
Not that ANY of this really matters, but..... IF the officer were slightly OVER the middle line, he MIGHT could have seen Ben's arm, even in a curve. Have you NEVER looked in your mirror and seen the left headlight of a car that was anxiously trying to pass you? Have you not also seen this on a curve? Remember.... IF (in a reverse of the axiom) Ben could see him in his LEFT mirror, then the officer could ALSO see Ben's left mirror. And I bet his ARM stetches out further than his mirror! :wink: Of course, IF this was a left hand curve, there would be no problem for the officer to see his waving arm, and no problem for Ben to see the officer, and for that matter, not too much problem for the officer to see a clear roadway..... in which case, he could have PASSED!! But, I still contend that it was a righthand curve, Ben KNEW he was back there and was doing his BEST to wave him around if he needed to go right away, but wasn't gonna STOP in a curve! On the other hand, Ben said HE couldn't see what was coming (so he MUST have been in a righthand curve that even HE couldn't see far beyond, so I think he just slowed down (more than allready in the curve) and then started waving the officer past him once he saw the "coast was clear!" I think the exact time and place that Ben "activated his arm," is suspect and probably LOST in the thrill of the moment! :lol:
Setting aside what you think should be done. The question is -- What does the law require a driver to do when an emergency vehicle approaches from rear of your vehicle? Which I have shown you what the law requires. 1) move to the right and 2) STOP.
Well.... I'm not so sure we SHOULD "set that aside," since Ben didn't FIRST come on here asking about the LAW.... but rather asking for opinions of whether he did the right/smart thing! AND EVEN YOU SAID YOU PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME! :shock: :lol:
There must be a lot of "idiot politicians." Every law I have seen requires the driver to move to the right and stop. No law says the should run off the road. The law say move to the right as close as you can. Logic would be if you are already as close to the right as you can get the you would stop. Secondly, logic would say put on your four ways thereby showing you have stopped to the emergency vehicle.
Well there ARE alot of idiot politicians! As I stated earlier, they write laws for 4wheelers, without regard to the scenarios that might include a CMV, and especially a Hazmat load! Nearly EVERY one of those laws "assumes" room to PULL OVER, and not ONE of them even ADDRESSES a situation where there IS no paved shoulder, nor considers the size and weight of a CMV! Furthermore..... I've done a bit of googling myself on this, and find that many of these statutes are so poorly worded as to combine and confuse TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT aspects of the laws! Consider YOUR citation: Subchapter B. Right-Of-Way. § 3325. Duty of driver on approach of emergency vehicle. (a) General rule.--Upon the immediate approach of an emergency vehicle making use of an audible signal and visual signals meeting the requirements and standards set forth in regulations adopted by the department, the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection and shall stop and remain in that position until the emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer or an appropriately attired person authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic. On one-way roadways a driver may comply by driving to the edge or curb which is nearest to the lane in which he is traveling. This is your foundational basis, but NOTE that it allows for pulling to the LEFT if on a one-way street, and completely FAILS to give any real instruction to the person in the MIDDLE of three lanes! I can sympathize with Greg's PLIGHT! :lol: (b) Duty of operator of streetcar.--I'm not even gonna GO down this road of archane legislation! (c) Defense.--It is a defense to prosecution under this section if the defendant can show by a preponderance of the evidence that the failure to stop immediately for a police officer was based on a good faith concern for personal safety. In determining whether the defendant has met this burden, the court may consider the following factors: Here's where the laws get confused! The FIRST two sections concern the actions of a driver being PASSED by an emergency vehicle on his way to an accident or something! Yet these "defenses" are clearly part of the newer "blue light" laws, and concern a driver being PULLED OVER by an "emergency vehicle/trooper." These additions to the law were made because people were afraid to pull over for "blue lights" because so many were FAKES and they were being ATTACKED! 1. The time and location of the event. 2. The type of vehicle used by the police officer. 3. The defendant's conduct while being followed by the police officer. 4. Whether the defendant stopped at the first available reasonably lighted or populated area. 5. Any other factor considered relevant by the court. (emphasis added) These "defenses" are clearly intended for one who fails to stop IMMEDIATELY for a "supposed" officer of the law, until they were in a place where they felt SAFE in doing so! Now.... that really doesn't APPLY to Ben's situation.... but, hey!! It's IN THE LAW.... that YOU cited! And would HAVE to be considered in his defense.... UNLESS, of course, someone "activated their common sense!" :lol: http://members.aol.com/StatutesP1/75PA3325.html Or might the problem be found in the "unofficial" website you cited?? :roll: As bouncer said: and I repeat
My 2 cents you should have pulled over as much as possible to the right and stopped.2 things would have haoppened there 1 he would have gone passed you or 2 he would have got on his PA and told you to keep going.you should have stopped no matter what.
And I responded with a THIRD option! :wink: AND I GIVE UP ON TRYING TO GET THESE COLORS RIGHT!!! CAN'T YOU JUST TYPE IN BLACK???? :roll: kc0iv
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Remember... friends are few and far between. TRUCKIN' AIN'T FOR WUSSES!!! "I am willing to admit that I was wrong." The Rev. |
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