That is some interesting food for thought. I guess I had always associated the kingdoms in prophecy to be about the earthly kingdoms. Much like the giant statute discussed in the book of Daniel.

The head of gold represented the Babylonian Empire.
The chest and arms of silver represented the Medo-Persian Empire.
The belly and thighs of bronze represented the Greek Empire.
The legs of iron representing the Roman Empire.

Now here is where some may disagree. I believe the feet of clay mixed with iron is the empire that will come at the end times. First, the empire will be formed from two large entities (legs of iron). Then either the two largers entities will be broken into 10 smaller ones or that once the whole world comes under control then the kingdom will be reorganized into 10 governing provences.

Daniel 7:24

The ten horns are ten kings (ten toes on the great statue) who will come from this kingdom.

But it's the rest of Dan 7:24 that starts me in another direction.

After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones: he will subdue three kings.

So here could we be speaking about a coup of some sort.

Daniel 7:25

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

This sounds very much like the man of lawlessness described in 2 Thess 2:3 & 4.

So are we looking at a coup leader who will come into prominance after the world government is in place? Then take over some portion of the world and begin to "make war against the saints and to conquer them" as said in Revelation 13:7?

Some interesting comparisons.

Daniel 7:7
After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast-terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

Revelation 13:1
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
(2)The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Now compare Daniel 7:25 to Revelation 13:5.

Rev 13:5
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

42 months = 3 years & six months

time, times, and half a time from Daniel 7:25
time=1year, times=2years, half time=6months, or
42 months.

So in short I ask could an upcoming geo-politcal change be coming soon that starts with two large global entities that begets a world government system that would hearald us into a time of "Peace and safety" (in the form of a world government) that is discussed in 1 Thess 5:3. Then as it says "destruction will come on them suddenly" in the form of a politcal coup where the man of lawlessness, the terrifying and frightening beast, takes over and makes war against the saints and begins the final countdown? A countdown that last 3 & 1/2 years.

Sorry for the jumping around and the long post.

 

Looks like Skywalker is looking for a argument.

I am not ignorant concerning the Reformist. They believed by faith you are saved, it is the gift of Grace. The Holy Roman Church is the one who persicuted. Looks like your the one who needs a history lesson.

But indulge me Skywalker, come tell me your history lesson, lets see if it matches the encyclopedia's, and history books I have on this subject.

About the Church protecting pedifiles, You know your self that the SYSTEM is corrupted and THOSE WHO are COrrupted also, protect their own. Soo don't come in here and try to pull my post apart.

And as for disliking Catholic's that is a ASSumption on your part. If I must be more clear, it is the SYSTEM, that I do not like. This includes not just Catholisism, it includes most system's of Organized religions.

So don't try to bash me with your heritic, thats very Christian of you crap. I did not cast a stone, but when it comes to defiling inocents I cast a boulder, cause they know better.

Why don't you try to read every thing I say when it comes to religious mumbo jumbo, maybe you'll understand me a little better, and you won't be getting only part of a story.




It is principally driven by fear, hate, discrimination, stupidity, false pride, arrogance, and more stupidity. Mostly "wannabe christians" who have taken and mangled God's word to fit their own desires and agendas.



And the part of my opinion on the Antichrist, I have backed up numerously on this thread and others, if you don't understand it, or agree that is your right, don't be attacking me, for when you do your first line just described yourself.


So try again!!

 

That is some interesting food for thought. I guess I had always associated the kingdoms in prophecy to be about the earthly kingdoms. Much like the giant statute discussed in the book of Daniel.

The head of gold represented the Babylonian Empire.
The chest and arms of silver represented the Medo-Persian Empire.
The belly and thighs of bronze represented the Greek Empire.
The legs of iron representing the Roman Empire.


You are correct they are earthly, and they are spiritual.

Now here is where some may disagree. I believe the feet of clay mixed with iron is the empire that will come at the end times. First, the empire will be formed from two large entities (legs of iron). Then either the two largers entities will be broken into 10 smaller ones or that once the whole world comes under control then the kingdom will be reorganized into 10 governing provences.


Here I believe you are correct also. But the legs of Iron are of course the roman empire, The feet of Iron and Clay are the Holy Roman. the 10 toes are the revived Holy Roman Empire.


Daniel 7:24

The ten horns are ten kings (ten toes on the great statue) who will come from this kingdom.

But it's the rest of Dan 7:24 that starts me in another direction.

After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones: he will subdue three kings.

So here could we be speaking about a coup of some sort.


This is a picture of the rise of the first Holy Roman Empire.

These where the babaric Germanic tribes that settled in the conquered areas that once composed the Roman Empire.
these where
Goths, Ostogoths, Heruli, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Burdgundians, Anglo-Saxon, Franks, Alemanai.

Out of these the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and the Heruli where overcome by the Roman Church, so there is your 3 horns. plucked up.

Daniel 7:25

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

This sounds very much like the man of lawlessness described in 2 Thess 2:3 & 4.

So are we looking at a coup leader who will come into prominance after the world government is in place? Then take over some portion of the world and begin to "make war against the saints and to conquer them" as said in Revelation 13:7?


In a sense, don't get it mixed up.

The one spoken in Daniel is befor the trib it has already happend.
Notice the 10 Horns have no crowns.
So we know this, that it cannot be the exact same as in Revelations.

This that it is speaking of is the Holy Roman Church.

I am not going to give all the answers, but Shock the mind to investigate and see fro your self.

Here's another push, The H-roman empire came to full power in 538 AD. It lasted exactly 1260 years it crumbeld apart in 1798. Isaih was told by God to lay down on his side and for every day he lay there, it would be one year according to prophecy. So Times, Time and a half of Time= Times=2, Time=1, 1/2 of time equals well 1/2, wich all equals 3 and 1/2.

So 3 1/2 years. That is 1260 days, or 42 months.

Now in Revelations, this Empire arises again, this time it has crowns upon the horns. And guess what it last exactly 1260 days "Literal" and that is a literal 3 1/2 years. The reson you do not use the same formula, is because it is the last 7 years of the 70 weeks, in Daniel.


So this is why I said in essense you are correct.

All it is, is a revived Holy Roman Empire.

5 have fallen 1 is 1 will come, and 1 will acend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition "distruction" and he will be the eight but will be of the 7.


It is hard not to jump around, when it comes to this subject. :lol:

 

It looks like y'all have put quite a bit of research and thought into this stuff. I'm not religious, for a whole list of reasons, but I can respect religious folks who actually put some thought into their beliefs rather than just parroting what they have been told.

It has been a long time since I read the bible, but I remember that there is a part where Paul discourages the early Christians from marrying. He seemed to think it was a pointless distraction, since Jesus was going to come back very soon. Paul was just one guy, of course, but I'm sure lots of folks agreed with him at that time. So do you think that maybe this discussion is a little bit pointless? People have been looking for the return of Jesus for somewhere close to 2000 years now, and for that whole time, people have expected him to return any second now. There are still millions who expect to fly away any second now. I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs, I just wonder how you reconcile these facts. I could probably look up the verse if you want, but I expect one of y'all will already know about it.

 

Well hello Mr. Bighead, glad you could chim in.

You don't need to look up the verse, I know what your talking about, but if you want to refresh your memory I believe it is in Corinthians.

Well I think Paul was right about discouraging people to marry, but it was not because Jesus was comming back soon. It was because of the striff that a person goes through, while being married. Also it takes time away from God, because you are worried about the things in life, concerning your spouse. He also said it is better to marry, than to burn with passion.
But what He didn't tell us is, after your married the passion ends and you just dream about it. :lol:

Concernning the comming of Christ, it has been 2,000. years, but nothing realy mattered until Israel got there land back. So now the end time clock is ticking. God was not slack concerning His promise, but wanted everyone to get the chance, to get to know Him.

So I donot think it is pointless. Matter of fact I think it is past due. God gave us a timeline, but He told us in the Book of Daniel, that this timeline would not be understood untill the people run to and fro and knowledge shall increase. and after Israel got there state hood and their land back, that is what started the clock.

 

Mr. Bighead,

Welcome to the discussion. And please do not worry about how long or how much time you have spent studying the Bible. The thing I really like about these discussions, when done correctly in love, is that it gives us a good reason to get into the Bible and study so we can find out these things for ourselves. I am no expert by no means and won't claim to be one. Even before I rededicated my life to Christ in 2000 I had always been drawn to study apocalyptic subjects. But now with the things going on in the world right now it really points to the end times.

I agree very much with you that we should not and must not try to date set the return of Christ. But we are told to be watchful, looking up in anticipation of our coming Savior. Matthew Ch 24 and Luke Ch 12 & 17 are passages that tell us this.

Matt 24:42-44
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will com at an hour when you do not expect him.

Luke 12:35-40
Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,
like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.
It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.
It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night.
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.
You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Please jump in anytime.

 

Slimland,

A response to two of your post.

Response to post #1. Do not take the bait. Take a look at a couple of the other threads. Their are similar post that were fished out, sometimes going a month or more back, just so disparaging comments can be made. The posts that are fished out by this person are taken out of context. You know it and so do I. Don't fall for the bait. We got a good discussion going. No need to divert it to fending off trolls.

Response to post #2. I have to admit I am in the dark when it comes to the Holy Roman Empire and the geo-polictical world during that time. Man, I could not have told you the names of just one of those tribes you listed. I have tried to study Isiah in the past but it is a difficult book. I did not know about the part where he laid on his side. You have given me something to shock my brain and study. But in short it seems we are on the same line. That the coming world government will be the revived Roman Empire.

Hey, do you ever listen to a radio show called after dark? I usually do not but I listened to it last night and he had a guy talking about the endtimes. I believe his name was Irving Baxter and has a website www.endtime.com. I have not gone to check it out yet but he had some very interesting sights into end times that I want to study further. For one he had reason to believe that the four horsemen represent political systems that will challenge heaven and earth. You ready for this? The white horse is the false prophet heralding in the anti-christ. He says it will be the last pope which was foretold by St Malachi to be the evil anti-pope that takes the name "Peter." The black horse with the scales is capitalism, the red horse is socialism/communism, and the green horse is Islam.

 

The only reson I took the bait, is the fact of misrepresenting my post, just like you said. So it needed fixin.

Yes, I have heard of the After Dark, The St Malachi prophecy I do have an inkiling to believe, it does go hand in hand with what we have been discussing. I heard of this prophecy a long time ago, I can't remember where though. There was somthing else, I think it was 3 sister's who had a simular prophecy also.

About the Isaih, I am Sorry it was Eziekiel, Ch 4: vrs 4-6.

 

[quote="Slimland"]
Nope, just speaking the truth. And it seems I stuck a chord, eh?

No sir, I stand on my statements. History shows, and I am not referring to history from the Catholic point of view wither, that after the reformation when "protestants" merged their religious philosophies with government, many Catholics and others who did not agree with the "reformationists" were hung, and burned at the stake. I fear that you have access to a rather "slanted" version of the encyclopedia.

Ahhh, now the "condescention" begins. Care to list the "encyclopedia and other history books you have" on the subject? Are they linked to your religion?

No sir. You have been the apparent victim of propaganda and leaping to conclusions. While I will admit, as will any Catholic that there have been "wrongdoings" by some persons within the Church, the system itself is not broken, nor is it corrupt...it is a few people. No-one on this planet is more disgusted, angered or reactive to this than Catholics themselves. That a very small minority committed the sins and the crimes is an invalid reason to condemn either the system or the people who belong to it.

I will without hesitation "pull your posts apart", especially if and when I even begin to sense you are about to start hatemongering and bashing another religion....in a balderdash attempt to justify your beliefs. I have not criticised your beliefs, and probably never will. In as much as I was raised Catholic, though I am not a fully practicing Catholic, I will tell you that we as a group are pretty ambivalent to the beliefs of others, and for that reason I can say that I care little about others beliefs where they are different than mine. In fact, I don't care if you worship rocks or stumps, as its your choice. However, when I sense the preamble to attacks on another religion...I will tend to react. Deal with it, or keep your thoughts to yourself.

No, I think I understood more of what you are saying than you think. You are probably an "Evangelical", and your post alluded to that. You drop a couple of the standard "hack lines". You wouldn't happen to have an assortment of "Chick tracts" laying around the house, and a few in your pockets ready to leave in phone booths and in rest rooms now would you?

In that sentence alone...you proved your ignorance. Unless you are a Catholic who has fallen away from the Church, and embraced another opposing theology.... you cannot be a heretic. The word heretic is a word indigenous to the Catholic faith and Church. Just as is Anathema.... which incidentally is a word often bandied about as a twisted justification by Catholic haters as a twisted justification for their hatred and bashing. And sadly they have zero knowledge of either the meaning or application of the word.

If you would care to, or prefer to call it "bearing false witness", fine with me. But in any event...your statements were disingenuous and wrong. I also noticed that you completed evaded the fact that numerous clergy members of other religions have been caught and prosecuted for the very same crimes...... Curious, no?

I have little interest in reading about "religious mumbo jumbo". What I saw and read were words that related to the Catholic Church being full of protected pedophiles, and the home of the Antichrist. Now I may have made a minor error in venturing the guess that you were an evangelical, since the references could have as well been made by a Lutheran of a certain bent. I am well aware that it is a statement of their beliefs that the Pope is the anti-christ, which in and of itself is pure garbage.

Luther was a pissed off Catholic monk who had a bone to pick with the Bishops and disliked the Pope....and who was suspected of being alittle more than "unbalanced mentally"...which is documented historically. So the validity of the "reformation" is questionable...especially in light of the subsequent and significant disputes on theology between Luther and Calvin.

That statement on my part is one of pure and simple truth, born out by facts, not fiction. Would you like proof?

They "keyword" in that statement is "opinion", and while it is generally accepted that we are all entitled to at least one, you have yours, however....since it is merely your "opinion", it has no basis in fact...other than your opinion and apparent misinterpretation of scriptures or your blatant attempt to read something into scriptures. I have a more than adequate "understanding of scriptures". And being fully cognizant of the fact that I do in fact possess "free will"...I am able to discern the meanings of words, even in context, and the correct one at that. I have heard the line of balderdash you are referring to before, and its little more than opinionated conjecture, with absolutely no basis in fact.

No, I think I did not describe myself. I do not fear you, or any other person of a different religion. I honestly could care less what you believe. Nor do I spend time thinking or worrying about it. I have my beliefs and my faith. Thats all that matters, plain and simple. But while that was a "nice try" at tossing guilt, it was very immature and amatuerish.


Gladly. If you go down the wrong street, you may end up getting an education that could in fact cause you to rethink your beliefs. That is unless you are one of those highly indoctrinated junior neo-fascist religious wacko's who's been totally brainwashed.

I'll give you a tip though to save you some trouble though. Stay away from "bashing and hatemongering" with regards to Catholicism or any other religion, and things will be just peachy. And before you try to ping me for my comments about Islam.....do some study on the subject and you will most likely agree, and also agree that it is really a religion and a government wrapped up in one nasty package.

So, if you wanna play, lets play.

Have a nice day!

 

[quote="Skywalker"]
I have a more than adequate "understanding of scriptures".

Aparently Not!! But if you say so.

I'll give you a tip though to save you some trouble though. Stay away from "bashing and hatemongering" with regards to Catholicism or any other religion, and things will be just peachy.


I did not bash any Catholic, just the system, and not only Catholic system but the others also. And as for the Catholics in general, there are many Christians that are Catholics, as for the Anti-Christ I do not believe the Church or the Pope is the Anti-Christ, but it is the system in which he will use. So you are just bantering to banter, I guess you got your panties in a wad. So pull them out, and quit crying. suck it up, an learn somthing.
I am through chatting with you, on this subject it is taking away from the original subject, and it is not profitable. I have said what I have said, and it will not change, so your argument is mute.



So have a good day!!