You know, Slim...there are two sides to every story....two sides to every debate. I will typically stay out of debates like this, but today, I feel like delving in. So now for the other side of the coin. Keep in mind, I'm cutting down significantly on the post, going after those scriptures that you feel indicate a rapture is imminent.

Meaning when He returns, every living person on the earth will see the return. No arguments there.

Commonly referred to as the midpoint of the Tribulation, if you believe along the definitive lines of an actual tribulation timeline. I personally don't think it's anywhere near as cut and dry. Remember in Matthew, it states that none, not even the Son, knows of the time of His return. Only the Lord knows. That scripture rather contradicts the standard interpretation of the above scriptures.

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There are 2 schools of thought here, neither speaking of the rapture.

#1: Those saints are those that have already died and secured their place in His kingdom, returning with Him when He returns.

#2: Those saints are those that are still on the earth, having not yet died. Remember, a war takes two sides. Good vs. Evil. There will be plenty of saints on the earth during the battle of Armageddon. I rather doubt they will be sitting in the grandstands watching it play out.

Again, no proof of the rapture.

Again, is this speaking of those saints that have already gone to heaven or those that are still here on the earth. Again, no mention of the rapture.

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Many people consider Thessalonians to be the A #1 scriptures that prove the rapture, when it fact they are among the best that disprove it.

Two interpretation possibilities here.

Falling asleep = falling away OR falling asleep = already dead

Either way, I'll cover both, because the end result is the same. I tend to lean toward the second interpretation, but have heard people that think that it refers to people that fall away.

Most likely, the falling asleep means those that have already died and the scripture is referring to the resurrection. But if we're talking about those that have fallen away, the door is always open for them to return, with the obvious repentence process.

I always enjoyed this one, for it is proof positive that there is no rapture. Whether you're talking about those that have fallen away or those that are already dead, those that are alive and well will NOT precede those that are asleep. So, there it is. You cannot have a rapture without rendering that scripture completely wrong. You can interprete scripture a number of different ways, but sometimes the scripture is right there in black and white. That one cannot be interpreted away from the obvious.

Those scriptures refer to the Second coming. When Christ returns and satan bound, the dead in Christ are resurrected and ONLY then. The dead rise first...the rest of us are then caught up together with them.

I could go on fairly extensively, but I will leave it at that. It's just not there in the scriptures. The interpretation to come to that conclusion is far-fetched and doesn't fit in with scriptures that are black and white.

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Why is it that every rapturist believes that this scripture means they won't be here? There is nothing in that scripture that indicates you will be spared the difficulty of the final days. It only means that you will be spared His wrath; the plagues he pours out upon the unbeliever. If you believe, then you have nothing to worry about concerning the punishments that God visits upon the unbelievers. But you will be here; you will witness it; and you will most likely be targeted by satan's followers because of it. The final days are not meant to be a walk in the park.

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No rapture. Only indicates a gathering of Christ's followers in the final days. That's already happening. Believers and non-believers are polarizing more today than ever before. Much of it is due to the information age, the rapid spread of information, both good and bad, right and wrong.

Speaking of the antichrist. We're on the same page there.

Seperation of the wheat and the tares. Again, that is happening today at an alarming rate.

Still no rapture.

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I have always like this one. Pretty straight forward, too. It means that whoever seeks to save his mortal life by dwindling in unbelief or siding with the 'wrong' side, will lose his eternal glory. The person that gladly lays down their life for their belief in God, will inherit eternal glory.

A very gray scripture that is just as likely to indicate that of believers, half will die in the final days. It could also indicate, if we take it back one scripture to verse 33, that in the final days, half the people will be believers and half will not. Either interpretation could be correct and neither indicates a rapture. But either way, it is important to read verse 33 as part of the whole.

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Second coming. That one is pretty straight forward.

You highlighted 36 as a rapture scripture, but 36 is part of the 2 passages before it and is a cautionary warning not to get caught up in carousing, drunkeness, worldliness, etc. In other words, be worthy...not be be caught up in a rapture, but to be able to stand with Christ when He returns.

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Scriptures state not a generation will pass before the return of Christ after Israel returns. That said, how long is a generation? By today's standards, it's roughly 80 years. By biblical standards, it could be hundreds of years. With today's rapid spiraling downward of mankind into depravity, I tend to think it's the former. But remember the words "not a generation will pass". So, I'd say anytime between now and around 2028, though I would hazard a guess that it will be well before that.

It may or may not be referring to 09/11. Granted, the slaughter was great, but that could be a precursor to some future cataclysmic event on a much grander scale. No way to tell on that one.

Heaven.

Says nothing about anyone disappearing. Says they will be taken. Taken how? Probably by death.

Resurrection happens when Christ returns. Not before. Therefore, one cannot be 'raptured'.

Nothing pertaining to a ratpure at all there.

On the contrary...

Christ will come with the resurrected saints. In my opinion, that's one of the glaring issues with rapturists. They forget how many saints have already died and will yet die. In addition, they do not take into account the saints that will already be here when He returns, people like you and I. A rapturist is proposing a third subset of believers, which is not supported anywhere in the scriptures.

I said it earlier, but it bears repeating. Not being appointed to God's Wrath means we are spared His punishments for the non-believers. It doesn't mean we won't be around to see it doled out.

I've heard that one before and it's a very weak argument, to be honest. It can just as easily be (and likely is) referring to the resurrection, the dead "raising up".

I prefer the English word of Fantasy. Because really, that's all it is. I take nothing away from rapturists...I can certainly understand the need and the want to believe in such a thing. Sure, that'd be a great thing to have a rapture and not have to worry about the terrible turmoil that will abound on the earth. In the final few years on this earth, life is going to be nasty...it's moving in that direction now. But if we're all raptured away, then who's going to be around to fight the battle of good and evil, the battle of Armageddon? Who's going to be around to teach the word of God during those 7 years? Why not take all the saints away and just wipe out everyone else, since they are all non-believers and wicked anyway? You see my point?

And perhaps the most glaring problem of all with rapture believers is that you believe that you are not appointed to death. We are mortal, mortals die. Such was the result of Adam and Eve sinning and being cast out from the Garden. In all of recorded (Biblical) history and with only one exception I believe, only Enoch and his followers were spared death and taken up into heaven, there not being a single wicked person among them. They were so righteous, they were not appointed to death. A rapture would not only trivialize their righteousness, but also dimishes Christ's sacrafice.

I could go on, but there is no need. I've spent a long time studying this subject for various reasons and in the many discussions I have had about this, I have yet to have anyone offer me up anything truly convincing. Bottom line, it's just not there. The arguments for a rapture are thin, at best, and most of the scriptural pieces that a rapturist quotes will take on a completely different meaning when you add back in those scriptures before or after that were snipped. You can go through the bible and pick out any one scripture and claim it means a certain thing. But when you look at the whole picture, study the scriptures before and after it, the meaning becomes much more obvious.

The 'rapture' was coined only a couple of hundred years ago, if that, and without my handy dandy notebook, I can't even tell you the guy's name that coined the phrase. But the fact is, it was his interpretation of scripture that came up with the concept and it was that new teaching that brought members to his church, their pocketbooks filling up his offering plates. Ask yourself a question. For as long as the Bible has been available and the number of people it has been available to, how is it that no one saw this 'rapture' before he did?

In addition, belief in the rapture is dwindling. Like any other bright new idea, the novelty is wearing off. As the day for the alleged rapture supposedly draws nigh, more and more people are cracking open their Bibles and suddenly realizing their errors. But hey, if the rapture happens, great. I'll high-five you in heaven and say "how 'bout that, I was wrong." But I believe it will end up being more along the lines of "hey, you were wrong, so let's tighten our resolve and see this thing through. At least we know that in the end, we win."

 

First off I want to say a most excellent post TF. Even though I must respectfully disagree with you, there is no doubt in my mind that you are a child of God.. And that my brother is the only thing that matters..


Now let me rebuttle..


I said
TF replied

The return of the Lord, ie the 2nd comming. IMOP, is in refrence to the above..
The Lord does know when the 2nd comming is and the Rapture, it is just not appointed for man to know.. God the Father, and all the rest of the Godhead has to know, for the know all..


TF
I have never heard someone interpet this as falling away.
Jesus used this saying about Lazerous, saying he was asleep, then plainly told the apostle he was dead. So that was the way I used it.


This actualy is not true, I have heard this befor also..

The origins of the doctrine of the rapture are hotly debated. The Orthodox, mainline Protestant, and Roman Catholic churches, which represent the majority of Christians worldwide, have no tradition of such a teaching and reject the doctrine, in part because they cannot find any reference to it among any of the early Church fathers[1] and because they interpret prophetic scriptures in an amillenialist fashion, as being more symbolic than literal.

Proponents of the rapture insist that the doctrine of amillenialism originated with Alexandrian scholars such as Clement and Origen,[2], and was later brought wholly into Roman Catholic dogma by Augustine.[3] Hence, the church up until then held to premillenialist views, which see an impending apocalypse from which the church will be rescued via the rapture. This is even extrapolated by some to mean that the early church espoused pretribulationism. [4]

Some pre-Tribulation proponents maintain that the earliest known extra-Biblical reference to the "pre-Tribulation" rapture is from a sermon falsely attributed to the fourth-century Church Father Ephrem the Syrian, which says "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."However, the interpretation of this writing, as supporting pre-Tribulation rapture, is debated

I believe you are refering to Darby, he just borrowed it..

TF, I have believed as you have, and through my study's have found there is a rapture.. It realy doesn't matter though.. If God wills me to be here during the Great Trib, then so be it, just give me the Faith, and the strienth to do His will. If there is a Rapture then like you I would be happy also, even more so than staying here..


As for the generation,, the Bible in every instance that I have read states that a generation according to the Word is 40 years.. Now if mans is longer that doesn't matter IMOP, it is God's that matters.. and I have yet seen any verse of scripture that says any diffrent.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But either way, any one can read what you and I have put, and read the Word for themselve and make there own discissions.

It has been a Pleasure TF.

Slimland

 

Pre-trib rapture = a calling away of the church before the beginning of the tribulation.

Mid-trib rapture = a calling away of the church at the mid point of the tribulation.

Post-trib rapture = a calling away of the church at the end of the tribulation.

However, I am part of a small sect called Pan-tribers.

Pan-trib rapture = a calling away of the church when God decides cause He is in charge and it will all "pan-out" in the end.

Sorry, could not avoid a little silly humor. :wink:

 

I predict The Rapture will be "proof positive" for those in denial that aliens and UFO's DO exist...

"See Homer, I told you there wuz a sucha thang as UFO's...last night they cum got my wife and three of my neighbors...and not only that but CNN says it's happenin' EVERYWHERE!"

:lol:

 

Redeemed it is soo good to see you present again.
It has been a long time my brother!

Have you been keeping up with the news?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19135297/

and I had found another, but cant' find it now.. I think it was Syria's army station at the border of Israel.

 

Slimland,

I have seen a little about the current military movements between Israel & Syria. I had not seen this report that Israel sent word to Syria about possibly giving up the Golan. If so, this is a major concession by Israel and I believe may be one of the last things that happen before war breaks out again. After the fighting in Lebanon last summer, if Israel gives back the Golan they will be considered so weak that they will virtually be inviting an attack by Syria and others.

 

That's the most important thing. Good discussion, by the way.

Don't have my Bible with me, so not sure which scripture it is. But it's in Matthew and actually states that ony the Father knows the time, not even the Son knows. So, it actually states that the Godhead does not know.

That's really important, too. I've talked to enough rapturists that have actually said "if there is no rapture, I don't know what I would do." Those are the people that are going to switch sides and there are going to be a lot of them, unfortunately. It's the rapturists that have the attitude, "I believe in the rapture, but if there isn't one, I'll cinch up the belt and power through this," that will be just fine.

By the way, if Israel gives up the Golan, we'll be in the home-stretch.

Again, good discussion. It was a pleasure.

 

I wonder if this will be that war, where nothing happens to Israel, because God distroyes everything with hail and fire, I cant remember what book that was in, but I want to say eziekiel.

 

Well as for the scripture you are talking about, I am well aware of it.. But my wonder is, How can God not know, but God can.. :?
That is why I think Jesus know as part of the Godhead, but in the flesh he doesn't, so in other words it is not appointed for man to know. Does that make sense :lol: :?

If there is no rapture-- Then I pray God give's me strienth to do His will, and to be honest, I would see it as a Honor, to even think He would think me worthy, to carry the gosphel during that time.. For out of all the time's in History, He chose this time, to have me here.. And if it includes the great trib, then that is an honor.. But I still would rather be raptured up :lol:

Now as for the Golan-- question for those who know that area better than I do,,, Isn't that a stategic millitary area?

 

The Golan is a very strategic area. It is a virtual gateway for Syria into Israel by its high plateau that gives a chance to rain down shells on Israel. The Golan was annexed by Israel and supposedly was not to be considered negotiable teritory like the Gaza or West Bank.