Karl Rove smiling...

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  #51  
Old 10-23-2006, 01:16 PM
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Oh, this one is really interesting, even for people that dont like to read much :lol: I wont tell you where the reference to Dem voter fraud is, youll have to read the whole 3 pages, NeoCons! :wink:

http://www.washingtonspectator.com/a...playbook_1.cfm
 
  #52  
Old 10-24-2006, 08:48 PM
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You want to talk about disenfranchised voters:

Even if there was a problem with the ballots in that county; Even if the elderly couldn't understand the ballot, you still cannot do what the Democrats wanted to do there, because it would have disenfranchised EVERY OTHER VOTER IN THE COUNTRY, who was not given the same opportunity to have their votes re-counted, and were not given the opportunity to re-vote. The Democrats wanted to make that particular county "special", and give them MORE rights than were afforded by the law. THAT is disenfranchising.

Just sayin'.
 
  #53  
Old 10-24-2006, 09:26 PM
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That's different Rev... LOL!!! :shock: :roll:
 
  #54  
Old 10-25-2006, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago
You want to talk about disenfranchised voters:

Even if there was a problem with the ballots in that county; Even if the elderly couldn't understand the ballot, you still cannot do what the Democrats wanted to do there, because it would have disenfranchised EVERY OTHER VOTER IN THE COUNTRY, who was not given the same opportunity to have their votes re-counted, and were not given the opportunity to re-vote. The Democrats wanted to make that particular county "special", and give them MORE rights than were afforded by the law. THAT is disenfranchising.

Just sayin'.
You know, the funny thing was that, during the whole month or so of the "recount/court battle," and although I was sitting at home watching both Fox and CNN almost 24/7, I can't remember hearing ANY of the major players mention a RE-VOTE. It was all about recounting the undervotes due to the chads.

I may have heard one or two rare pundits mention it, and of course I jumped up and said YES!!! NOW you've got it! See... a recount wasn't going to prove much, as close as the election was. It was the 19,000 'overvotes' from Palm Beach Co., where two holes had been punched (one for Buchanan and one for Gore) which were then tossed out, that would have decided the election. And, of course, you could add to that number some 2,000+ ballots that were punched only once for Buchanan that even HE agrees were probably intended to be for Gore.

Actually, the Democrats didn't want anything special for that county other than maybe to let the recount be concluded. The SCOTUS stopped the count before that county and Miami-Dade were finished with the recount. But, I agree that even finishing the recount might not have changed the outcome.

The ONLY proper, fair AND legal remedy, would have been a re-vote. And, according to the SCOTUS decisions cited in the ACLU brief that you MAY have skimmed over, such action DOES NOT disenfranchise any other voters in the country. There were plenty of legal precedents for doing JUST that, and the court wouldn't have ruled in favor of them, if it was going to disenfranchise any other voters.

"Both federal and state law recognize that where an election process is fundamentally flawed as a result of systemic irregularities that place the outcome in doubt, remedial action, including conducting a new election, is warranted.

Subsequently, in Beckstrom v. Volusia County Canvassing Board, 707 So.2d at 725, the court noted that where there was "substantial noncompliance with statutory election procedures," and where there was "reasonable doubt" that the election "expressed the will of the voters," then the proper course "is to void the contested election even in the absence of fraud or intentional wrongdoing.

Because of the overriding importance of equal voting rights, the remedial powers of the courts are particularly broad in this area of the law. See Alabama v. United States, 304 F.2d 583, 590 (5th Cir. 1961). The courts have enjoined and set aside the results of elections held in violation of the law, Hamer v. Campbell, 358 F.2d 215 (5th Cir. 1966), Bell v. Southwell, ordered new elections, Hadnott v. Amos, 394 U.S. 358 (1969), ...ordered excluded minorities placed on the registration rolls, Alabama v. United States, 304 F.2d at 594, and issued injunctions against economic coercion and intimidation, United States v. Bruce, 353 F.2d 474 (5th Cir. 1965).

Ordering a new election is not a matter lightly to be undertaken by a court ... But where an election is a flawed process or violates fundamental standards of fairness a court has an obligation to intercede to insure that the integrity of the ballot is preserved. It is far preferable to require a new election than deny voters the constitutionally protected right to vote. Bell v. Southwell, 376 F.2d at 662.

There is ample precedent for requiring new elections "where broad-gauged unfairness permeates an election, even if derived from apparently neutral action." Griffin v. Burns, 507 F.2d at 1077. See, e.g., Hadnott v. Amos, 394 U.S. 358, 367 (1969) (directing "state and local officials to conduct a new election in Greene County" Alabama); Busbee v. Smith, 549 F.Supp. 494, 519 (D.D.C. 1982) (implementing an election schedule for the 4th and 5th Congressional Districts in Georgia); Fain v. Caddo Parish Police Jury, 312 F.Supp. 54, 57 (W.D.La. 1969) (requiring a special election); Scott v. Lack, 332 F.Supp. 220, 222 (E.D.Tex. 1971) (requiring a special midterm election); United States v. Post, 297 F.Supp. 46, 51 (W.D.La. 1969) (special election required despite the fact that defendants had acted in "good faith"); Swann v. Adams, 263 F.Supp. 225 (S.D.Fla. 1967) (special election ordered).

Given the facts as presently known in this case, there is "reasonable doubt" that the election has not "expressed the will of the voters." Beckstrom v. Volusia County Canvassing Board, 707 So.2d at 725.

The design of the ballot in Palm Beach County failed to conform to state law in several important respects. The candidates were not arranged in the order prescribed by statute and the directive of the Florida Division of Elections. Fla. Stat. ß 103.021(2).

In addition, the instructions accompanying both the offical ballot and the sample ballot were misleading in that they advised the voter to "punch straight down through the hole to the right of the arrow by the candidate or issue of your choice." Even when the ballot was aligned properly in the voting machine, there were three punch holes to the right of the Democratic candidates. [and NO holes to the right of Buchanan's name] The first of these corresponded to a vote for the Reform party candidates. [Buchanan]

The evidence that voters were misled by the ballot irregularities seems undeniable. More than 19,000 votes were thrown out because voters punched two holes in the presidential race. The Reform candidate received unprecedented support in heavily Democratic Palm Beach County, the only county in the state to use the butterfly ballot.

Statistical analysis and the statements of voters themselves support the conclusion that there was a systemic flaw in the election. Confusion over the flawed ballot was apparently compounded by an official policy against helping voters who experienced difficulty in voting."
 
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  #55  
Old 10-25-2006, 08:39 AM
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And again, just because someone was "confused" and screwed up their own ballots (even after they had all those aids that you mentioned before) it still doesn't mean that the whole world has to stop for them to get their collective crap together. They were uninformed or just too dumb to complete the rather simple task of following arrows on a ballot. The laws were specific and the SCOTUS basically decided not to allow the forces that were mobilized to the area to keep screwing around with the laws that were already in place. This is a dead issue and has been since just after the 2000 elections.
 
  #56  
Old 10-25-2006, 04:35 PM
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DIDNT you read the article? dont you watch the news? Fraud is still and will be a BIG issue in this and the prez election... Wheres the article about the lady that found a copy of the 'Dieblod' voting machine software in her mailbox???
 
  #57  
Old 10-26-2006, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Fozzy
And again, just because someone was "confused" and screwed up their own ballots (even after they had all those aids that you mentioned before) it still doesn't mean that the whole world has to stop for them to get their collective crap together.

1) NONE of the "aids" that I mentioned earlier, which are guaranteed by law, were given to the voters of Palm Beach Co. They were refused help and replacement ballots. Not to mention that the ballots themselves violated the law.

2) There is a precedent, (I don't remember the year) when it DID take until April of the next year to get the vote right! What's a few months versus the 6 years of this "failed" administration?


They were uninformed or just too dumb to complete the rather simple task of following arrows on a ballot. The laws were specific

The arrows were misaligned, and the instructions told them to expect a punch hole to the RIGHT of the name. Yes, the laws WERE specific, and the ballot didn't OBEY those laws.

...and the SCOTUS basically decided not to allow the forces that were mobilized to the area to keep screwing around with the laws that were already in place.

Actually, that is NOT what the SCOTUS decided. See, that is the problem with some people. They don't understand the legal process that took place, and they TOTALLY misunderstand what the decision of the courts were. They just see what they WANT to see.

This is a dead issue and has been since just after the 2000 elections.

Actually, I believe this issue is still alive, and is PART of the basis for my original response to this thread. YOU made it about the 2000 election. I was simply saying that the "paperless" voting machines cannot be trusted. And, I find I am not alone. SEVERAL congressmen and pundits have brought up the fact that these machines can be faulty, hacked, or at the very least are NOT verifiable.

And therefore, EVERY future election is now in doubt. And that is probably why Rove is smiling!

 
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  #58  
Old 10-26-2006, 01:47 AM
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Rev: You mentioned the 1995 ballot. I assume you meant the 1996 ballot, as there was no election in '95. But, YES, they DID use a similar, if not identical butterfly ballot design that year. But, because the Governor was Democratic, it was the Republican candidate that was SUPPOSED to be listed second. That was Dole. Unfortunately, the Independant (or reform) candidate was listed on the RIGHT side, just as Buchanan was this time.

As a result, and EXACTLY as it happened this time, some 15,000 votes were double punched and "overcounted" and thrown out that should have gone to Dole. So.... YES, those voters were "disenfranchised."

The BIG difference is.... that election was a landslide for Clinton, and it didn't matter. (Although, I'd be JUST as passionate about having them "re-voted" if it affected the outcome of that election.)

The fact is, however, that it was NOT a successful election in that county, using the same ballot design. And THAT should prove that it is not the intelligence of the voters, OR their party affiliation, that is in question... but the design of the ballot.

It just happens that in THIS case, it decided the election in favor of the candidate that LOST the popular vote.

Why didn't they FIX it? Hmm.... maybe, because they KNEW that they could skew the election in Bush's favor by using the same design. And THIS time, they added the instruction to the poll workers NOT to help anyone who had any questions!

I suspect that if the governor had been democratic, and therefore the "third" name on the ballot (supposed to be the second) was going to be Bush, they WOULD have fixed the problem!

But, they DIDN'T. And they got one of their own elected as the election official to ensure that it wasn't corrected. AND they told the assistants NOT to assist. AND they "scrubbed" some 50,000 voters from the roles that were predominantly Black and Democratic! AND they ran ads encouraging Independants to vote for Nader. And they let the Federal courts get involved - which was against the law. AND they stopped the recount by a 5-4 decision by the SCOTUS, led by Scalia - who had just recently returned from a fishing trip with Cheney! :shock: AND there is MORE!

Do you not recognize a stolen election when you SEE one?

No, of course you don't. And THAT is why I don't count on YOU to question the integrity of a paperless, electronic voting sytem....

And THAT IS WHY KARL ROVE IS SMILING!

Hobo
 
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  #59  
Old 10-26-2006, 02:01 AM
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Paper ballots and electronic ballots are not perfect and neither is infallible, the fact is that every system is up for corruption and there is no system that is immune to it. BOTH sides have been proved to be corrupt or have tried to pad their chances on various levels. The problem here is that the minority party is hedging their bets and starting to complain early so when and if they lose (regardless of the reason) that someone has "ripped them off". It's like dealing with children anymore. Having to explain to adults all the time that sometime no matter what you wish for, it may not come true and sometimes, you lose!
 
  #60  
Old 10-26-2006, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by golfhobo
It just happens that in THIS case, it decided the election in favor of the candidate that LOST the popular vote.
I knew your REAL beef with the election would come out sooner or later. :roll:
 




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